Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 20:18:22 GMT
Reply-To: jiwaniszek@nc.rr.com
Sender: "SAS(r) Discussion" <SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
From: John Iwaniszek <jiwaniszek@NC.RR.COM>
Organization: Road Runner - NC
Subject: Re: PROC TABULATE, and most other PROCs
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
This goes to the heart of the certification issue, which started this
thread. Why should a procedure, which is easily replaced and certainly
not essential, contribute so much to one's professional standing?
John
Ray Pass wrote:
>
> Here we go again :-) Maybe we can nip this one in the bud.
>
> Why do we often get into these shooting matches about, "My PROC's better
> than your PROC!" Personally, I am a BIG fan and user of PROC TABULATE,
> especially with it's new tie-in to STYLES and ODS, but I do not try to
> proselytize about it, or about REPORT or ODS or any other PROC or method
> that I use. I do try to tell others about them and suggest that they might
> be quite useful, but I am a firm believer in using whatever gets the job done.
>
> Innovation and modification and new technologies have their places for
> sure, and I am a major fan of using the latest and the greatest, but
> there's also a lot to be said for comfort and familiarity levels, as long
> as the end product is not seriously lacking because of a firm resistance to
> effective and productive change.
>
> We see these arguments on both sides. "You really should be using this new
> tool." "That new tool is probably dangerously buggy and I recommend the
> old tried and true." Personally, I think that when taken to extremes,
> both of these types of arguments are counter-productive. I am not accusing
> anyone of anything right now, but I guess I am asking for a more
> enlightened atmosphere of tolerance and education as opposed to
> competitiveness and narrow-mindedness.
>
> I think that both messages below do adhere in spirit to a notion of, "This
> works for me", and both do state that these are subjective statements, but
> I can see them as possible launching points for another battle, which we
> don't need. Thanks for listening.
>
> Ray
>
> At 02:48 PM 5/23/00 -0400, Anne.Marie.Smith@ASTRAPHARMACEUTICALS.COM wrote:
> >In my humble opinion, the tabulate procedure has its place in the language/SAS
> >system.
> >I too have worked with several clients in the Pharmaceutical and Healthcare
> >Information Industries.
> >And I have found the tabulate procedure to be of better use to create some of
> >the statistical tables.
> >It has proven very useful for me in my creation of 2 way and 3 way tabular
> >crossings.
> >And I like the ALL option, its great for the totals. Also with V8 we can get
> >the median stat
> >without using the univariate procedure, to me this is a good enhancement.
> >
> > I do not find it cumbersome, limited and it's output is very attractive. I
> >have had a number of my
> >tabulate created text tables published within Study reports/NDA documents.
> >
> >Kind regards,
> >Anne
> >http://geocities.com/rainbow_softwr
> >
> >-----------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >To: SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >cc:
> >From: John Iwaniszek <jiwaniszek@NC.RR.COM>
> >Date: 05/23/2000 05:52 PM GMT
> >Subject: Re: SAS certification vs. MCSE vs. coca vending machine
> >
> >Message
> >___________________________________________________________________________
> >_____
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Sorry for rubbing you the wrong way. I meant (partly as a gibe) to
> >include proc tabulate in my list of representative trivia because I have
> >seen very little proc tabulate generated tables in my 10 years of
> >generating tables and listings. I can not remember the last I use proc
> >tabulate, yet I entabulate data daily for some of the biggest CROs and
> >Pharamceutical comnpanies in the world. Proc tabulate is cumbersome,
> >limited, and inadequate to many of the tasks we perform. Plus, its
> >output is no way near as attractive as what I can do with our home grown
> >SAS macros.
> >
> >I am sure that the intelligent reader will recognize that many of what I
> >ave expressed is opinion subject to one's individual perspective.
> >However, my satisfied clients will agree and it is they who count.
> >
> >As for the certification exam, the inclusion of many proc tabulate
> >questions does not enhance the exam's credibility.
> >
> >John
> >
> >"Lund, Pete" wrote:
> > >
> > > I also took the Tekmetrics "test" (it was free!) and had the same initial
> > > reaction. If I remember right there were about 40 questions and I would
> > > hope that they are drawn from a larger pool of questions. I was surprised
> > > at the relatively large number of questions that were related to PROC
> > > TABULATE - probably 10-15%. No offense Lauren, but PROC TABULATE does not
> > > make up 15% of my coding day. I agree with Anne that TABULATE is not an
> > > obscure procedure, but it does not warrant the proportionally largest share
> > > of a SAS test.
> > >
> > > I made it through as a "Master SAS Programmer" but I would put less
> > stock in
> > > that than the piece of paper they never sent me! When I've been
> > involved in
> > > conducting technical interviews we've always had people provide code
> > samples
> > > (though I guess they could be forged) and asked the applicant to do a data
> > > flow diagram of a simple (with a twist) little problem. Those two things
> > > often guided an interview much more than the score on a multiple choice
> > test
> > > ever would.
> > >
> > > Pete Lund
> > > WA State Caseload Forecast Council
> > > (360) 902-0086 voice
> > > (360) 902-0084 fax
> > > peter.lund@cfc.wa.gov
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Anne.Marie.Smith@ASTRAPHARMACEUTICALS.COM
> > > [mailto:Anne.Marie.Smith@ASTRAPHARMACEUTICALS.COM]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 8:46 AM
> > > To: SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: SAS certification vs. MCSE vs. coca vending machine
> > >
> > > Hi SAS-lers,
> > > Ah yes, I have heard of this test website, aka TekMetrics, from Charles
> > > Patridge. So the test is trivial,
> > > in your opinion, while asking about obscure fxs and formats and even proc
> > > tabulate. What is wrong with
> > > asking about proc tabulate, which in my opinion, is not an obscure
> > > procedure.
> > >
> > > By the way, check out www.reviewnet.net for a better online SAS test. It
> > > will
> > > cost you though.
> > > I was one of the outline designers and writers of this SAS online test.
> > >
> > > Kind regards,
> > > Anne
> > > http://geocities.com/rainbow_softwr
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > To: SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > cc:
> > > From: "David L. Cassell" <Cassell.David@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
> > > Date: 05/22/2000 06:27 PM GMT
> > > Subject: Re: SAS certification vs. MCSE vs. coca vending machine
> > >
> > > Message
> > >
> > ____________________________________________________________________________
> > > ____
> > >
> > > John wrote [in part]:
> > >
> > > > I took the Brain Bench certification test and found it to measure
> > > > primarily trivia (obscure functions and formats, proc tabulate). I do
> > > > not believe that it would serve as a good measure of SAS skill or even
> > > > an efficient screen for potential candidates
> > >
> > > I agree wholeheartedly with you about Brain Bench [aka TekMetrics].
> > > I have complained about their testing in this very mailing list.
> > > But that is *not* the same thing as the certification which SAS is
> > > pushing.
> > >
> > > That will measure your knowledge of a *different* set of trivia.
> > > :-)
> > >
> > > David, who hopes people spot that smiley...
> > > --
> > > David Cassell, OAO cassell@mail.cor.epa.gov
> > > Senior computing specialist
> > > mathematical statistician
> >
> >--
> >John Iwaniszek
> >
> >Statistical Programming Manager
> >Stat-Tech Services, LLC
> >
> >919 571 6444
> >
> >Developers of the Macro Reporting System - Delivering
> >Statistical reports in ASCII, RTF, and HTML
> >
> >http://www.StatTechServices.com
>
> *------------------------------------------------*
> | Ray Pass voice: (914) 693-5553 |
> | Ray Pass Consulting eFax: (914) 206-3780 |
> | 5 Sinclair Place |
> | Hartsdale, NY 10530 e-mail: raypass@att.net |
> *------------------------------------------------*
--
John Iwaniszek
Statistical Programming Manager
Stat-Tech Services, LLC
919 571 6444
Developers of the Macro Reporting System - Delivering
Statistical reports in ASCII, RTF, and HTML
http://www.StatTechServices.com
| 
