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Date:         Tue, 10 Jul 2007 08:45:52 -0600
Reply-To:     Alan Churchill <savian001@GMAIL.COM>
Sender:       "SAS(r) Discussion" <SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
From:         Alan Churchill <savian001@GMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Extensive SAS Library
Comments: To: d@dkvj.biz
In-Reply-To:  <NIECJIJPHOLPKIFCPLHOEEDKJLAA.d@dkvj.biz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

David,

Most of my work is actually Windows forms and not web apps. Winforms are more of a direct comparison to AF than a web app. That will change a bit with Silverlight. The nice thing about .NET is that the same code tends to run for both the web and for winforms. The code also works on mobile devices, web services, etc. That helps minimize my time investment.

Alan

Alan Churchill Savian "Bridging SAS and Microsoft Technologies" www.savian.net

-----Original Message----- From: SAS(r) Discussion [mailto:SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of David Johnson Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 2:23 AM To: SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Extensive SAS Library

We're going to have to stop issuing these fighting words Alan <grin>

In SUGI 31, the SAS/AF development team presented a terrific presentation looking at the development and future of AF through SAS9. Now that was interesting and inspiring.

I have one major complaint against the stuff that depends on Internet browsers: there is a cowardly mass of Morlocks out there writing and sharing code blocks and applications intended to subvert web servers, send Spam email, steal users details or identities and behave in a sociopathic manner. The risk of losing data or services is sending a number of people back to well written and compiled applications that don't have the same vulnerabilities.

All right, so not all SAS/AF apps have the same robustness, but I still develop them for specific purposes and am fairly confident that they won't leak like the sieve that we have seen from IE. Yes, I know there has been a concerted effort to overcome security issues by Microsoft, but tools are constantly evolving and we don't really know the extent of the remaining vulnerabilities.

Kind regards

David

-----Original Message----- From: SAS(r) Discussion [mailto:SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Alan Churchill Sent: Tuesday, 10 July 2007 1:14 AM To: SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Extensive SAS Library

Randy,

I think a hammer vs my statement is not a valid comparison. Building techniques haven't varied much over the years yet technology varies continually.

The statement as to speed of development is interesting. On one hand I agree but I can normally get a nice UI in place reading SAS datasets in around 15 minutes or less. 5 mins vs 15 mins isn't a dramatic difference (assuming AF dev in 5 mins).

So why would someone want a different framework than AF?

- web services support - more robust toolset - massive 3rd party vendor support - much faster development for complex functionality - robust XML support - better IDE - $0 cost for IDE and framework - framework already installed on most Windows machines - most code runs the same on Windows or Web - AF future uncertainty - etc.

I could go on but the list could take a bit of time. What you save up-front, IMO, is not worth what it costs later.

But we can disagree. Many folks are very comfortable in AF and that's fine. If it works in your shop, so be it. I find pitching SAS with a .NET front-end to be very compelling to a lot of customers because they have development staff that can support .NET. Also, the apps look great and are feature rich.

Alan

Alan Churchill Savian "Bridging SAS and Microsoft Technologies" www.savian.net

-----Original Message----- From: Randy Herbison [mailto:RandyHerbison@westat.com] Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 8:56 AM To: Alan Churchill; SAS-L@listserv.uga.edu Subject: RE: Extensive SAS Library

Alan wrote "SCL, AF, FSP, Insight, etc. are old, old technologies. The future is elsewhere. Same reason I tossed my Rexx and TSO books. They simply are not relevant in today's world."

My hammer is pretty old technology too, but I still find it useful.

Using SAS/AF, it is still possible to develop a GUI to SAS more easily and quickly than can be done with Visual Studio.

-Randy

-----Original Message----- From: owner-sas-l@listserv.uga.edu [mailto:owner-sas-l@listserv.uga.edu] On Behalf Of Alan Churchill Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 12:06 AM To: SAS-L@listserv.uga.edu Subject: RE: Extensive SAS Library

I tossed all of my SAS manuals 10 years ago. Didn't offer them to anyone, just tossed them.

SAS is a different beast today. While the Base manuals still have some interest to some, the online docs suffice for everything IMO. Print goes stale so fast that having a manual doesn't matter much. SAS moves slower than many languages so there are some good concepts but I agree with Joe that it doesn't matter much.

SAS's future has been bound by forces outside of its direct control for several years: J2EE, .NET, SOA, regex, et al. SAS is now being wrapped by other technologies. The core remains the same but for a SAS person, the move should be toward learning the wrapping technologies.

SCL, AF, FSP, Insight, etc. are old, old technologies. The future is elsewhere. Same reason I tossed my Rexx and TSO books. They simply are not relevant in today's world.

Next up will be HTML and JavaScript books. I have looked forward to that day for a decade as well...may have to have a book burning in my fireplace...

Alan

Alan Churchill Savian "Bridging SAS and Microsoft Technologies" www.savian.net

-----Original Message----- From: SAS(r) Discussion [mailto:SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joe Whitehurst Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 9:39 PM To: SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Extensive SAS Library

Jules,

I am a practicing psychologist who has a passion for SAS as a hobby with a similarly extensive library of SAS manuals, papers, course notes, binders, etc. and, in addition, a complete set of "Observations" with the index. The content of the library goes back as far as the late 70's. As difficult as you might find this to believe, unless you are targeting someone who is interested in the history of the development of the SAS System Documentation, I fail to see how any of this material will be useful to anyone. SAS spends a lot of money on R&D and anyone serious about doing serious work with SAS ought to keep their attention focused on the latest online documentation from SAS Institute. SAS might have inspired the movie "Transformers". Anyone interested in using SAS effectively needs to understand that SAS is changing rapidly.

Joe

On 7/7/07, nr <newsreader@midsouth.rr.com> wrote: > > How about donating to a college that uses SAS in it's courses? >


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