Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:05:08 -0400
Reply-To: Nathaniel.Wooding@DOM.COM
Sender: "SAS(r) Discussion" <SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
From: Nat Wooding <Nathaniel.Wooding@DOM.COM>
Subject: Re: SAS's Future
In-Reply-To: <001501c8d132$f68747d0$e395d770$@com>
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Phil
The so-called supplemental or user written procs all died in the V5 to V6
switch when SAS recoded the whole package in C. They did bring some of the
procs into "the fold" and recoded them in C as part of their re-write.
There was one small proc that I used regularly and in inquiring about its
demise, I was told that the gauge of popularity was the number of tech
support calls that they had logged on the procs. Since this one was very
simple and verrrryyyy bulletproof (I only broke it once), it scored low on
the popularity index. So much for meristics that don't really tell folks
what they want to know.
One aspect of the world then vs now is that SAS was pretty well confined to
the mainframe so with the exception of the V5 pc product, there was only
one operating system for the proc writer to deal with. Now, of course, with
the multi vendor architecture, a proc writer would be faced with a larger
task. I have heard of some "toolkit" product but I'm not sure what this
will actually do for a would-be Proccer.
Nat Wooding
Environmental Specialist III
Dominion, Environmental Biology
4111 Castlewood Rd
Richmond, VA 23234
Phone:804-271-5313, Fax: 804-271-2977
Phil Rack
<PhilRack@MINEQUE
ST.COM> To
Sent by: "SAS(r) SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Discussion" cc
<SAS-L@LISTSERV.U
GA.EDU> Subject
Re: SAS's Future
06/18/2008 07:03
AM
Please respond to
Phil Rack
<PhilRack@MINEQUE
ST.COM>
I've been reading all the comments in this thread with a lot of interest.
My
take is that SAS will not open up on anything because they want to control
the system 100% from top to bottom. Allowing for 3rd parties to do any
coding without using SAS products is and will continue to be verboten. Btw,
whatever happened to user contributed procs that we used to see back in the
80's and 90's? Why did SAS stop encouraging their development and stop
distributing then? I never understood why they fell to the wayside?
Which brings up another point. What happens when SAS doesn't control the
language of the data step anymore? If a vendor (say WPS) continues to
produce compatible data step code but decides that the language is too
restrictive and introduces extensions, does SAS still control the language?
Just some thoughts...
Philip Rack
MineQuest, LLC
SAS & WPS Consulting and Software Development
Tel: (614) 457-3714
-----Original Message-----
From: SAS(r) Discussion [mailto:SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Alan
Churchill
Sent: 06/18/2008 2:42 AM
To: SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: SAS's Future
Ok, I can see some of the points here Roland but GWT is behind the times.
MySQL, sure, Java, sure, but JavaScript is really dated at this stage and
GWT is very dependent on JS.
Google is struggling to catch up and they still don't have an effective
strategy for next gen web apps. The battle is really between Flex and
Silverlight. SAS is going with the former, fine, but the latter has a lot
of
momentum. If you needed to build a next gen web app today, Silverlight is a
solid choice. Don Henderson and I demo'd it working against SAS data at SGF
and it ran like a champ.
Rumor has it that Google may buy Adobe to try and catch up but, for now,
Google is behind. AJAX is a fancy name for a hack and is an absolute bear
to
code. JavaScript likewise.
If someone chooses Flex or Silverlight, fine. But to go and create AJAX
apps
with JS behind the scenes? Ughhhh! Google needs to figure out what to do
and
fast because Microsoft and Adobe have them over the barrel right now.
Alan
Alan Churchill
Savian
www.savian.net
-----Original Message-----
From: SAS(r) Discussion [mailto:SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of
RolandRB
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 12:05 AM
To: SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: SAS's Future
On Jun 17, 8:32 pm, mlhow...@avalon.net (Mary) wrote:
> Actually, I think SAS has more basic things it should be doing; its =
> interface to Microsoft Excel isn't very good, in that it doesn't allow =
> specification of variable type and lets its import guess based on the =
> first 5 rows. Also it is not currently supporting Office 2007, which =
> it needs to be doing. The ability to import all spreadsheets within a =
> workbook at once would also be a great help.=20
>
> I also notice that there are many areas in the SAS display manager that =
> do not behave the way Microsoft products behave. One example would be =
> "find and replace" when viewing a SAS data set, and just the general =
> "look and feel" of SAS compared to Microsoft products. Many of the =
> functions in the display manager just feel very clunky. And then there
=
> is the idea of following Microsoft's trend of ribbons rather than =
> menus....
>
> Perhaps SAS is trying to compete on too many platforms; and may just =
> want to focus on Microsoft, Unix, and IBM mainframe platforms, and just =
> not worry about Linux; the vast majority of users now have been trained =
> on Microsoft products and operating systems.=20
>
> Also having SAS be "free" to those teaching it would help- the reason =
> Java got into computer science in Universities was that it was available
=
> free, and then it had an edge coming out of colleges in that many =
> students were trained in it. The next generation of computer science =
> students will be trained in .NET with C#, so I think that they will be =
> more Microsoft oriented. Actually, the interest in JAVA on college =
> campuses seems to be dying out.=20
>
> SAS still has tremendous capabilities to merge and manipulate data, and =
> although I don't know R, I would anticipate that it has nothing like the
=
> capability yet of Proc SQL. That SAS can do this, and then use that =
> data in its statistical procedures is its strong suit. Also, SAS seems =
> not to understand that it is the ability to write programs in SAS that =
> makes it different from interactive packages; and ODS makes the ability =
> to capture pieces of output to save in data sets for later use or to =
> summarize results that makes it very powerful. =20
>
> Thus if SAS took the steps necessary to improve its display manager to =
> behave more like Microsoft Office, if it gave it away free to college =
> students, and developed its editor in ways that Excel has, such as =
> fill-in functions, I think it could have a long future.=20
>
> Excel is a long way from becoming a data mining tool; in that it still =
> cannot merge at all and its statistical functions are crude and =
> elementary, plus its VB Excel programming language leaves much to be =
> desired. Thus, I don't think it competes with SAS Base and SAS Stat, =
> though certainly does in terms of graphics. =20
>
> If SAS could be more compatible with Excel, and have a similar interface
=
> to Excel, then I think it can withstand the tide.=20
>
> -Mary
I think it depends on the industry. I work in clinical reporting and
the problem I see with sas in the future is the cost of multi-user
licensing when many people want to access it through the web. It gets
too expensive and therefore alternatives look better unless what sas
produces is static and not interactive. I can see sas becoming a
behind-the-scenes application creating data sets which then get
exported out to MySQL or the native Java database and then people
accessing the data through the Google Web Toolkit compiling Java
applications. No doubt other more convenient technologies are out
there or will come along. SAS are pricing themselves out of their own
future. I might be writing such a system to do interactive graphical
patient profiling instead of using the static system (all written in
sas) that I currently have.
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