3 messages.---Johnnie
--------------------------------------------------------------
>Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:35:23 -0500 (EST)
>From: [log in to unmask] (Cheryl Woods)
>Subject: Map implicated in ski lift disaster
My understanding was that this same type of accident had happened a few
years earlier and killed 40 people. If so, surely they should have learned
from that mistake and not have to blame it on maps.
*******************************************************************
Cheryl Woods
Map Curator tel: 519-661-3424
Serge A. Sauer Map Library, SSC 1051 fax: 519-661-3750
University of Western Ontario [log in to unmask]
London, Canada N6A 5C2
*******************************************************************
-----------------------------------------------------------
>Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 10:59:29 -0500
>From: Stephen Baig <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Map implicated in ski lift disaster
Prof. Hanley is correct.
There is a long-standing tradition of "flat-hatting" amongst military
pilots. That's the descriptive term used for flying so low that the hats
of the eaarthbound are flattened. Any military pilot who professes not to
know the term is either lying or a damned poor (military) flyer.
At 10:39 AM 19-02-98 EST, you wrote:
>4 messages.-----------Johnnie
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>>From: Sue Haffner <[log in to unmask]>
>>Subject: Maps implicated in ski lift disaster
>>Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:24:44 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>Debra Natsios posted the New York Times story regarding
>the Italian ski lift disaster caused by a U.S. military
>plane hitting the cable.
>The story, as it appeared in my local paper, indicated that
>the military were using a TPC. This made me check our TPC's
>to see how the area appears.
>According to the 1956 US Board on Geographic Names gazetteer,
>the coordinates should be 46 17 N and 11 27 E. This area is
>on TPC F-2B (I'm working from memory here, but I think it's
>the one). A lot of aerial cables are indicated in the mts.
>there, but I wasn't able to find the town, Cavalese, and
>the mountain, Cermis, isn't in the gazetteer.
>I haven't had time to plow through our 1:250,000 Italy topos.
>Has anyone else checked out this location?
>
>Sue Haffner
>Map Library
>CSU Fresno
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>>Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:06:21 -0500 (EST)
>>From: [log in to unmask] (Tom Hanley)
>>Subject: Re: maps implicated in ski lift disaster
>
>
>So, no one's to blame? Hadn't there been complaints from previous flights?
>Do pilots get a wild hair up and do low level flying on the whim of the
>moment? Didn't pilots talk to each other? Sounds to me like poor
>judgement and lack of oversight rather than the maps are the main culprit
>here.
>
>Tom Hanley, Professor of Geology
>Department of Chemistry and Geology
>Columbus State University
>4225 University Avenue
>Columbus, GA 31907-5645
>Phone - 706-568-2074; FAX 706-569-3133
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>>Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 08:15:13 -0500
>>From: Stephen Baig <[log in to unmask]>
>>Subject: Re: maps implicated in ski lift disaster
>
>
>Regardless of the stupid attempt by NY Times et al. to shift the blame from
>the aircrew the stunt known a "flat-hatting" is privately well known if
>publically poorly acknowledged amongst armed services aviators of all
>countries.
>
>
>
>At 04:01 PM 18-02-98 EST, you wrote:
>>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>> Excerpted from The New York Times
>> Wednesday, February 18, 1998
>> Pp A1, A6
>>
>> How Wayward U.S. Pilot Killed 20 on Ski Lift
>> By John Tagliabue with Matthew L. Wald
>>
>> "...the pilot of the EA-6B Prowler did not have Italian
>> military charts provided to his commanders that marked
>> the ski lift, which is also clearly noted on road maps.
>>
>> Instead the Pentagon, whose policy is not to use maps
>> made by foreign countries, had given the crew an American
>> military chart that did not show the ski-lift cable,
>> which was built 31 years ago from Cavalese, on the valley
>> floor, south to the top of Mount Cermis.
>>
>> .....
>>
>> The Marines will not explain why the Italian charts with
>> the ski lift it were not used. American military flights
>> generally use American maps, mostly because Pentagon
>> officials trust American map-makers more than the
>> agencies that draw local maps. Italian officials say that
>> they give Italian charts to NATO officials but that they
>> are poorly distributed.
>>
>> Defense Department officials in Washington said that at
>> least two American military maps of the region do not
>> include the ski lift because its towers are too low. The
>> tallest towers on the lift rise only 65 feet, and
>> obstacles need not be shown unless they reach
>> approximately 100 feet, said Mark E. Shultz, associate
>> director for geospatial imagery at the National Imagery and
>> Mapping Agency. The maps cover towers, not cables, he
>> said, despite the fact that the cables at Cavalese are
>> more than 100 feet above the ground.
>>
>> "Without putting surveyors on the ground to look at
>> features like that, we would have no way of knowing what
>> the height was," he said.
>>
>> -------------------------
>>
>>
>Stephen Baig
>
>Oceanographer,
>TPC/National Hurricane Center
>Miami, FL
>
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Stephen Baig
Oceanographer,
TPC/National Hurricane Center
Miami, FL
-----------------------------------------------------------
>Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 16:41:13 -0500
>From: Deborah Natsios <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Map implicated in ski lift disaster
didn't mean to play the provocateur regarding
NYT story by 'implicating' maps.
indeed, as suggested by tom and stephen,
maps the least of pilot's problems.
to wit, NYT article cites, among other infractions
(these also committed on earlier occasions
by both Italian air force and NATO flights,
repeated civilian complaints brought no relief):
1 pilot violating orders to fly 1,000 ft above ground
2 pilot off course, off limits
3 possible joy riding at 540 mph,
although captain had no reputation as cowboy
>
>So, no one's to blame? Hadn't there been complaints from previous flights?
>Do pilots get a wild hair up and do low level flying on the whim of the
>moment? Didn't pilots talk to each other? Sounds to me like poor
>judgement and lack of oversight rather than the maps are the main culprit
>here.
>
>Tom Hanley, Professor of Geology
>Department of Chemistry and Geology
>Columbus State University
>4225 University Avenue
>Columbus, GA 31907-5645
>Phone - 706-568-2074; FAX 706-569-3133
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>>Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 08:15:13 -0500
>>From: Stephen Baig <[log in to unmask]>
>>Subject: Re: maps implicated in ski lift disaster
>
>
>Regardless of the stupid attempt by NY Times et al. to shift the blame from
>the aircrew the stunt known a "flat-hatting" is privately well known if
>publically poorly acknowledged amongst armed services aviators of all
>countries.
>
>
>
|
