-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: The decline and fall of the descriptive gazetteer Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 10:54:54 +0000 From: humphrey <[log in to unmask]> To: Joel Kovarsky <[log in to unmask]> CC: [log in to unmask] No, know nothing about that work. I am writing the chapter not because I am an expert on the history of gazetteers, but because I am one of the editors of the book, we concluded a historical chapter was essential, and as far as we could discover — including emails on lists — there are no experts on the history of gazetteers. I have done extensive historical research in the past, but on British economic and social history, and the reason I am involved in the book is my expertise on data models for digital gazetteers. … so, please say more about the history of American geographic education! Best wishes, Humphrey Southall On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:47, Joel Kovarsky <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: > Humphrey, > > I am guessing you are quite familiar with the works on the history of > American geographic education by Susan Schulten and Martin Brückner. > Hence I am just sending this along privately. > > Joel > > On 1/15/14, 2:44 PM, Angie Cope, American Geographical Society > Library, UW Milwaukee wrote: >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Re: The decline and fall of the descriptive gazetteer >> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 19:23:02 +0000 >> From: humphrey <[log in to unmask]> >> To: Angie Cope, American Geographical Society Library, UW Milwaukee >> <[log in to unmask]> >> >> >> >> I don’t know much about Chinese gazetteers — but that is precisely >> why Peter Bol at Harvard is my co-author on this chapter. >> >> I am very aware that there are other parts of the world besides N >> America, W Europe and China, and would be very interested in comments >> on them … >> >> Humphrey >> >> On 15 Jan 2014, at 18:54, Angie Cope, American Geographical Society >> Library, UW Milwaukee <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >> >>> >>> ------- Original Message -------- >>> Subject: Re: The decline and fall of the descriptive gazetteer >>> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 12:37:46 -0500 >>> From: Joel Kovarsky <[log in to unmask]> >>> To: Maps, Air Photo, GIS Forum - Map Librarianship >>> <[log in to unmask]> >>> >>> >>> >>> I am assuming your focus is on Western European gazetteers, and >>> perhaps more focused on those British. Their history in China may be >>> older: >>> <http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2719404?uid=3739936&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21103277674257> >>> and >>> <http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm?articleid=17066178&show=abstract> >>> . Given my lack of linguistic skill, I have no idea how these >>> structurally compare to later western counterparts, although looking >>> at that paper it appears they tended to be quite regional. >>> >>> Given your ongoing and extensive involvement with this subject, it >>> would not surprise me if you already knew this. >>> >>> >>> Joel Kovarsky >>> >>> On 1/15/2014 12:15 PM, Angie Cope, American Geographical Society >>> Library, UW Milwaukee wrote: >>>> >>>> forwarded by Angie >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> Subject: The decline and fall of the descriptive gazetteer >>>> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 16:27:32 +0000 >>>> From: humphrey <[log in to unmask]> >>>> Reply-To: A forum for issues related to map & spatial data >>>> librarianship <[log in to unmask]> >>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As some members of this list will know, I am co-editing a book >>>> about gazetteers, especially future digital gazetteers; but also >>>> authoring an introductory chapter which looks at the history of >>>> gazetteers, a surprisingly little explored topic. >>>> >>>> Our general point is that, although most people’s idea of a >>>> gazetteer is simply a list of geographical names each with some >>>> kind of coordinate and sometime with a simple “feature type”, like >>>> “settlement” or “mountain”, there is an earlier history of >>>> gazetteers which provide lengthy descriptions of each place/feature. >>>> >>>> We have computerised several of these for our web site, A Vision of >>>> Britain through Time, and are currently working on tidying up the >>>> seven-volume "/Gazetteer of the World, or Dictionary of >>>> Geographical Knowledge,/published by Fullarton's of Edinburgh in >>>> 1856; this has already been digitised within Google Books, but we >>>> are turning it into clean database content. We estimate it contains >>>> around 80,000 entries and 7m words, so the average entry is a >>>> couple of sentences, and many go on for several pages. Similarly, >>>> this “entry” for Edinburgh in Groome’s /Ordnance Gazetteer of >>>> Scotland/ (1882-4) contains over 100,000 words: >>>> >>>> http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/descriptions/108700 >>>> >>>> SUCH BOOKS ARE NOT SO MUCH PLACE DICTIONARIES AS PLACE >>>> ENCYCLOPAEDIAS. I HAVE BEEN EXPLORING THEIR EARLY HISTORY, BUT THIS >>>> POSTING IS TO ASK ABOUT THEIR LATER HISTORY, AFTER 1900. >>>> >>>> My basic narrative at the moment is that descriptive gazetteers, as >>>> distinct from itineraries, first appear in the mid to late >>>> seventeenth century, and the lengthiest examples come from the >>>> second half of the nineteenth century — but they then pretty much >>>> stop — when I have looked at the shelves of gazetteers in various >>>> libraries I have mainly seen books from the 19th century, >>>> occasionally earlier. >>>> >>>> The exceptions seem to be: >>>> >>>> — There are of course lots of atlases which also include a >>>> gazetteer at the back (but this is about books which are primarily >>>> text) >>>> >>>> — Bartholomew have kept publishing revised editions of their >>>> Gazetteer of the British Isles (but that has relatively short >>>> entries, so more a place dictionary than an encyclopaedia). >>>> >>>> — Various guides aimed mainly at tourists are organised as sets of >>>> alphabetically arranged entries about places, with descriptions; >>>> for example, various Shell Guides. However, map libraries are less >>>> likely to hold these. >>>> >>>> IS THIS A FAIR NARRATIVE? WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BIG DESCRIPTIVE >>>> GAZETTEERS AFTER 1900? >>>> >>>> One suggestion is that they were supplanted by broader >>>> encyclopaedias, a substantial fraction of whose headwords are >>>> typically toponyms. I have sometimes suggested that the world’s >>>> biggest and most widely used digital gazetteer is now Wikipedia; I >>>> once sampled 100 randomly selected Wikipedia articles, and about >>>> 30% had an associated global coordinate. >>>> >>>> I WOULD BE VERY GRATEFUL FOR ANY THOUGHTS ANYONE HAS. I continue to >>>> find it bizarre that so much has been written about the history of >>>> maps and so little about the history of gazetteers and itineraries. >>>> >>>> With thanks, >>>> >>>> Humphrey Southall >>>> >>>> Reader in Geography/ >>>> Director, GB Historical GIS >>>> University of Portsmouth >>>> Geography Dept, Buckingham Bldg, >>>> Lion Terrace, Portsmouth PO1 3HE, UK >>>> www.gbhgis.org <http://www.gbhgis.org/> & >>>> www.visionofbritain.org.uk <http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Joel Kovarsky >>> The Prime Meridian >>> 1839 Clay Dr., Crozet, VA 22932 USA >>> Phone: 434-823-5696 >>> Email:[log in to unmask] >>> Website:http://www.theprimemeridian.com >>> >>> >> >> Humphrey Southall >> Reader in Geography/ >> Director, GB Historical GIS >> University of Portsmouth >> Geography Dept, Buckingham Bldg, >> Lion Terrace, Portsmouth PO1 3HE, UK >> www.gbhgis.org <http://www.gbhgis.org/> & www.visionofbritain.org.uk >> <http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/> >> >> >> > > > -- > Joel Kovarsky > The Prime Meridian > 1839 Clay Drive > Crozet, VA 22932 USA > http://www.theprimemeridian.com Humphrey Southall Reader in Geography/ Director, GB Historical GIS University of Portsmouth Geography Dept, Buckingham Bldg, Lion Terrace, Portsmouth PO1 3HE, UK www.gbhgis.org <http://www.gbhgis.org/> & www.visionofbritain.org.uk <http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/>