Hello Angie / Jon, I was interested to read this discussion about the Klokan Bounding Box tool, and just wanted to throw in a few details from a similar discussion that we had in the UK on this in 2018-19. As NLS has worked with Klokan Technologies (who renamed themselves to MapTiler in 2018) for many years, I was asked to look into this and reported the following: • We felt that the Bounding Box tool has worked very well for many years, and it has been well supported for free for the community by MapTiler. What really changed in 2018 was that Google started charging significant sums for the use of the Google Maps API and Google Places API, so continuing to use these within Bounding Box would have incurred significant fees. What Klokan/MapTiler decided to do was to switch as far as possible to use cheaper alternatives - particularly OpenStreetMap base mapping and the OSM Nominatim gazetteer - to avoid paying these fees. In practice, the background mapping in Bounding Box is MapTiler Cloud's base layers ( https://www.maptiler.com/maps/ ), sourced from OSM, and OSMNames ( https://osmnames.org/ ) for gazetteer searches. These do cost MapTiler funds to run, albeit less than the Google alternatives, but they are not truly open-source. • It became clear when discussing the Bounding Box tool with UK map cataloguers, what they really valued / preferred was the former Google Places API gazetteer search, as well as in some cases, Google base maps such as Terrain, etc. • So it may be the real question is not so much should Bounding Box be made open-source, but rather, if these Google components are deemed to be essential, who should continue to pay for them? Or if the preference is to be completely open-source, as MapTiler were happy to release it as such, would map cataloguers be happy with the poorer gazetteer search and mapping? There are ways that it would have been and would still be possible for MapTiler to re-program the Bounding Box application to use the Google Places API without necessarily incurring monthly fees from Google. For example, when we discussed this with them they described how it would still be possible to reintegrate use of Google Maps API and Google Places API back into the Bounding Box tool. This would restore the better gazetteer search functionality that was there, and introduce Google map layers back in, but not as the default options, so that the high monthly bills that Google introduced from 2018 could be avoided by keeping the usage of the Google elements down. • As part of the changes, MapTiler also said they would plan to update the old Bounding Box technology ( with new HTML/CSS/JS ), re-branding Bounding Box as part of OldMapsOnline (their brand for cultural heritage), and refresh the design. • Angie is right on the fees - the plan was for them to charge ca. CHF 3500 for this work – around £2,800 / $3,800. Their preference in 2018 was to charge for development work in bundles of 20 hours @ CHF 175 per hour which is what CHF 3500 would cover. This would either need to be paid direct by credit card by multiple libraries, or paid by a single institution by bank transfer, who then might gather payments from a wider group of libraries. They were not prepared to handle invoicing many libraries smaller sums to make up the whole as this would be very time-consuming with significant costs for them. • There was broad general support amongst UK map libraries for MapTiler to do the work, but sadly we collectively found no practical way to collect the money. No one institution was either prepared nor able to act as "banker", receiving funds from other map libraries and paying these on to MapTiler. We found a similar problem with the British Cartographic Society (which UK map libraries are often members of). So in the end the decision was taken to abandon the plan and live with the imperfections of the Bounding Box tool. I hope some of this info is helpful. I think there is certainly broad support for the Bounding Box tool amongst UK map libraries, and many UK map libraries were prepared to contribute funds to support it, if a suitable way of gathering these were found. Chris Chris Fleet Map Curator | Collections and Research Department National Library of Scotland 33 Salisbury Place, Edinburgh EH9 1SL Tel: 0131 623 4670 Email: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Website: maps.nls.uk<https://maps.nls.uk/> Twitter: @natlibscotmaps<https://twitter.com/natlibscotmaps> From: Maps-L: Map Librarians, etc. <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Jon Jablonski Sent: 06 December 2021 01:20 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: WAML IB 53.1 Issue -Kloken bounding box External Email: This email originated from outside of the National Library of Scotland. Do not click links or open attachments unless you have verified the sender and know the content is safe. Thank you all. How about throwing Kloken $4000 with the stipulation that the tool get updated and THEN open sourced? I am only a member of MAGIRT and WAML, so I am certainly not talking for the groups. But I know each has the money in the bank. Kloken has 30 employees and have been around for 10 years. $4k is chump change for how much time this tool saves the community. Happy holidays. Jon Jablonski Interdisciplinary Research Collaboratory UCSB Library [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> On Dec 4, 2021, at 6:31 AM, Angela R Cope <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: Ryan - back in 2018 when I contacted Kloken Technologies, they said it would take about 20 hours of labor at $200 an hour. I agree, asking them to let one of us map librarian/code people have access to it would be sweet. Can we suggest that they give it to us as a tax write off? -a- ________________________________ From: Ryan Mattke <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> Sent: Friday, December 3, 2021 9:27 PM To: Maps-L: Map Librarians, etc. <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>; Andrew, Paige G. <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>; Angela R Cope <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> Subject: Re: WAML IB 53.1 Issue -Kloken bounding box Angie -- What was the cost for Klokan to maintain the tool? Paige -- I doubt Google will change their map API to accommodate what is, essentially, old code in the bounding box tool... But I wonder...if Klokan isn't going to maintain or update the bounding box tool, would they open-source license it and let the community maintain it? It might be a much easier sell to admin to re-task some developer time, rather than to ask for funding... On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 12:02 PM Andrew, Paige G. <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: Thank you for this message Angie! To alert readers, a link to the MAGIRT map cataloging best practices document is in the wrong location and we are reaching out to the editor to get this resolved as soon as possible. That said, if you doclick on the link it does take you to the document referenced in the paragraph above where the link currently exists. As for the Klokan tool situation, I use it almost daily in my work and have not noticed anything apparent in terms of retrieving the information I need from it or navigating the tool. That said, your point is well taken, over time the capabilities and comprehensiveness is going to likely become an issue for whomever uses the tool. Is the suggestion to get a community of libraries (and users from other orgs) to get together and pony up enough funds to have Google update a viable one? I am thinking that going to my library's administration and making an argument to have the Dean allocate X number of dollars would be a tough sell. Would it be better to act as "community activists" and come together to ask Google to commit to maintaining Klokan over time as a "social good"? Paige ________________________________ From: Maps-L: Map Librarians, etc. <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Angela R Cope <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> Sent: Friday, December 3, 2021 11:18 AM To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> Subject: Re: WAML IB 53.1 Issue -Kloken bounding box I'm happy to read the article by Paige and Linda on leveraging technology to add coordinates data remotely in the latest WAML bulletin: https://waml.org/waml-information-bulletin/volume-53-number-1/leveraging-technology/<https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwaml.org%2Fwaml-information-bulletin%2Fvolume-53-number-1%2Fleveraging-technology%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cacope%40uwm.edu%7C06387b69070f4f8d630208d9b6d61fc8%7C0bca7ac3fcb64efd89eb6de97603cf21%7C0%7C0%7C637741854391322675%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=TG3t20NfLQ3HVsvS0hrRZ6U62eq2jn%2B%2BtlYB%2FU7gytc%3D&reserved=0> In the article, they mention using the Klokan bounding box tool. As we all know (we discussed this a year or two ago), the tool is degrading because it is not being maintained. Kloken Tech said, "There was a change of Google API that affected Bounding Box ... but there are no plans to restore or improve the search feature." When we discussed this as a group, a few people said they (their organizations) would be willing to chip in to pay to have Kloken update and maintain the tool. It was costly. I love using the Kloken bounding box tool and I dread the day it disappears. I mean, of course, we can put coordinates data in the old fashioned way but are there any of the professional organizations that could coordinate gathering money and contracting Kloken to maintain the site? WAML, ALA MAGIRT, etc? Seek donations from libraries or individuals? Well, happy Friday. Nice article Paige and Linda. Angie ________________________________ From: Maps-L: Map Librarians, etc. <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Chrissy Klenke <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> Sent: Thursday, December 2, 2021 2:34 PM To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> Subject: [MAPS-L] WAML IB 53.1 Issue Hi All, Thank you all for your patience and a special thanks to Kevin! Please let me know if there are any issues. Here is November 2021 Issue: https://waml.org/waml-information-bulletin/volume-53-number-1/<https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwaml.org%2Fwaml-information-bulletin%2Fvolume-53-number-1%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cacope%40uwm.edu%7C06387b69070f4f8d630208d9b6d61fc8%7C0bca7ac3fcb64efd89eb6de97603cf21%7C0%7C0%7C637741854391332640%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Z7BOwq%2FzlNiPhB89tIaCn0phorVNsRmFV9YrakEr69M%3D&reserved=0> Also, start thinking about submitting something for the next issue March 2022! There were some really good presentations I would like to see written out! Please contact me if you have any questions, concerns or suggestions.! Thank you! Best, Chrissy WAML Editor ________________________________________ Chrissy Klenke Earth Sciences, GIS, and Maps Librarian DeLaMare Science & Engineering Library University of Nevada, Reno 1664 N. 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