Two messages that should answer the Scotland forever...., uh Scotland and Wales question. -----------------Johnnie Sutherland -------------------------------------------------------- Tue, 07 Dec 1993 09:18:08 +0000 [log in to unmask] Scotland & Wales Hi Folks, Here's a British angle on a peculiarly British conundrum. What this all boils down to is how one defines the terms "Nation", "State" and "Country". There seems to me to be no problem with the concept of the Scottish and Welsh nations - - they are clearly distinct entities from the English nation. However, there is no English, Scottish or Welsh state - just the British state. To complicate matters, Scotland has its own legal and education system, but Wales does not - it is lumped together with England for these purposes. As for local government, England and Wales are subdivided into counties, Scotland into regions. Both Scotland and Wales have their own flags (as does England), and both have their own postage stamps, although these are not universally used, small thistles and dragons appearing in the top right-hand corner of the basic stamps featuring the Queen's head and the price of the stamp. Various Scottish banks issue their own banknotes. The pound note has long since disappeared in England and Wales, but not "North of the Border", leading to problems for those returning South encountering disbelieving shopkeepers unwilling to accept what is perfectly legal tender. I have the "Guinness UK data book" (1992) to hand and it says: SCOTLAND: "...effectively lost much of its independence in 1603 when King James VI of Scotland also became King James I of England. From 1603 to 1707 Scotland remained....an independent nation. Scotland and England continued to have separate parliaments until....1707......By statute Scotland may not be represented by less than 71 MPs at Westminster." WALES: "The area now recognised as the principality of Wales was incorporated into England by Act of Parliament in 1536....By statute Wales may not be represented by fewer than 35 MPs at Westminster." Despite all this, at no point have I ventured to say whether Scotland and Wales are countries. I have independently enquired amongst five members of our Map Room staff (one of whom was born in Bangor, Wales), and the result is unanimous that both are indeed "countries", the problem being how to define the word "country". They are definitely not regions, nor are they states, nor are they independent. Any help? Nick Millea Map Curator, Bodleian Library, Oxford tel +44 865 277013 fax +44 865 277182 email [log in to unmask] --------------------------------------------------------- Johnnie, this is the best response on my Scotland and Wales question. Thanks to all who responded. Jim ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Jim Coombs -- I had forwarded your question to a few friends in England (if that's the correct designation). Jim McNeil, Malcolm Lewis' research associate at the University of Sheffield sent this reply. Post it when you have your various answers, if you wish. Ed Dahl -- [log in to unmask] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= [log in to unmask] (AMERINDIAN AND INUIT MAPS AND MAPPING) Re: Scotland and Wales Fri, 03 Dec > ----------------------------Original message-------------------------- + -- > Are Scotland and Wales (and England, for that matter) countries? I + have > once again been contacted to provide something in writing in order to > settle an argument. Can someone out there provide me with a citation + to > a source which defines the political nature of these parts of the U.K. + ? > The World Factbook, and the other limited sources I have, skirt the + issue. > > Jim Coombs, Map Librarian, Southwest Missouri St. Univ. Ed Dahl (and Jim Coombs, via Ed?), This is a question that makes Scots cringe. No doubt the Welsh react in similar fashion. Of course, there wouldn't be nearly as much confusion if people throughout the world (including the English) would be more stringent in their use of geo-political names. I have lost count of the number of times that someone says "England" when they mean the UK. And when the error is pointed out to them, there is usually one of two reactions: 1. The English one, which is along the lines of "well, I meant that, you knew that, why are you being so petty" 2. The other (e.g., Americans), which is more understandable, along the lines of your question, i.e., well, what difference is there? So here goes... The United Kingdom was formed (finally) by the Union of the Parliaments in 1707. The crowns had been united in 1603 when James VI of Scotland inherited the English crown after the death of Elizabeth I of England, thus becoming James VI and I (normally referred to as James I by English historians). Note, in passing, that because of this, Elizabeth I was never Queen of Scotland, so the present Queen should correctly be referred to as Elizabeth II and I (Scots pettiness again) :-) For all international political purposes, all three countries are united as a single country in the United Kingdom. Single membership of the EC, of the UN, of NATO, etc. However, the plot thickens. Scotland, in particular, has always remained separate in many ways from England. Our legal system is totally separate and different, although a certain harmonisation has been inevitable. Our education system is completely different from the English one, as is our church (the Church of Scotland has no ties and little in common with the Anglican church). Many Scots will tell you that they are Scots first and British second. Increasingly, more are inserting European between the two. So, the answer to your question is, strictly speaking, no. They are EQUAL partners in a union of sovereign states, enacted in 1707. That does not approach the ancillary question of the nature of that union then (how it was foisted on the Scottish people) or today (when, but for a devious piece of referendum-rigging in 1979, the Scots at least, would have had a measure of political self-determination). For a text on the history of this situation, see John Prebble's "The Lion in the North", a very readable introduction to Scottish history. For the present, try the Encyclopaedia Britannica. I suspect it's got an appropriate entry. Hope this helps. Of course, as is probably apparent, this account is brought to you by a Scot of certain political leanings... An English or Welsh account may differ in emphasis. ;-( Jim McNeil. ************************************************ Amerindian And Inuit Maps and Mapping Programme, Department of Geography,University of Sheffield, Sheffield, S10 2TN, England. ----------------------------------------------- Senior Investigator: | Research Associate: G. Malcolm Lewis. | Jim McNeil. Tel: (direct dialling) | (0742) 824739 | (0742) 824748 ----------------------------------------------- Fax: (0742) 797912 E-mail: [log in to unmask] ************************************************ 1993 - Year of the World's Indigenous Tribal Peoples. ************************************************