----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Beware, beware. I am reminded of the Intergraph "workshop" every year at IMTA (they don't do it anymore) where they basically said, "The Mac will be dead in ten years, Windows is the way of the future... so you should use our system." Any argument based on "X is fading fast, so you should buy Y" is, at best, problemmatic. To say that automated GIS is the future, and that cartography as a human-controlled process is ludicrous. I don't believe you can automate the designed element of maps any easier than you can automate technical writing. Maps are used by people, and for really GOOD maps that stand on their own, you need someone able to adjust the map so it will be fully understood _by people_. So why can't design be automated. I'm annoyed as anyone who tries to make design be about sticking one's nose in the air and calling oneself an "artiste"; it is about experience and a sense of visual proportion and expression -- not emotional, "expressive" expression necessarily, but expression in the sense of "let me try to express this idea to you." That sense is something developed over time, and not something I can see being automated except in creating very specific and narrow "styles" (i.e. one could automate production of a standard map series, but not the production of maps in general. That said, the tools of GIS are designed for data crunching and on-the fly rendering; the creation of graphically sound pieces is secondary. Likewise, drawing tools are designed for efficient, intuitive creation of graphically sound artwork, but have little in the way of spatial data-crunching behind them. My conclusion: GIS and Cartography are names we give to two different but overlapping functions. Both are designed to create tools for use by people to navigate, analyse, and understand the world around them. Asking which contains which is a bit like asking the same about history and regional studies. The point in creating the specialties is to create focus on a particular sort of tool. The argument seems to me peculiarly academic, in that the answer means a lot more in academic circles, where one's funding, tenure, lab-space, etc., depend on demonstrating relevance. In the commercial world, the question is moot: given a particular problem, the answer is to find the _best_ tools, not necesarily the GIS tool or the carto tool. As near as I can tell, there will always be a need for both types of tool-sets, and very often both. I applaud Avenza's sense, especially, of trying to find ways to make it easier for these two tool-sets to work together... we have a long way to go. -- Nat Case Hedberg Maps, Inc. Publisher of PROFESSOR PATHFINDER Maps ___________________________________________________ Production Office (White River Jct, VT): [log in to unmask] Business and Sales Office (Minneapolis, MN): [log in to unmask]