-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Medieval 'projection'
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:28:57 -0700 (MST)
From: Laurence S. Creider <[log in to unmask]>
To: Maps, Air Photo, GIS Forum - Map Librarianship <[log in to unmask]>
I agree with Ken Grabach and David Allen. This discussion, of course,
also raises the problem of scale (or lack of it) in medieval maps. I
think that both Mr. Thornton and his professor might do well to consult a
basic discussion of map-making in the Middle Ages, even an older one to
better understand the issues.
Browsing GA201 might help; there are lots of chapters on ancient and
medieval maps.
--
Laurence S. Creider
Interim Head
Archives and Special Collections Dept.
University Library
New Mexico State University
Las Cruces, NM 88003
Work: 575-646-4756
Fax: 575-646-7477
[log in to unmask]
On Thu, January 19, 2012 9:56 am, Angie Cope, American Geographical
Society Library, UW Milwaukee wrote:
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: RE: Medieval 'projection'
> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:43:29 -0500
> From: Grabach, Kenneth A. Mr. <[log in to unmask]>
> To: Maps, Air Photo, GIS Forum - Map Librarianship
> <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
> I am by no means expert either on the georeferencing issue, nor on the
> topic of maps dating from before the later Renaissance. However, based
> on my admittedly limited understanding, I am inclined to agree with
> David Allen's comments. I think the issue of distance at the period of
> time in question represents an additional problem. Often distances
> longer than line of sight would be measured in terms of time traveled.
> Distance covered in a "day's travel by wagon" or "day's walking" or
> "day's march" and similar things. On the other hand, with a map that is
> sufficient to locate places named in Mandeville's account, this issue
> really wouldn't matter. It only requires comparison of the data
> mentioned in the account with a modern map and the information it
> provides.
>
> Ken Grabach <[log in to unmask]>
> Maps Librarian Phone: 513-529-1726
> Miami University Libraries
> Oxford, Ohio 45056 USA
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Maps, Air Photo, GIS Forum - Map Librarianship
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Angie Cope, American
> Geographical Society Library, UW Milwaukee
> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 11:06 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Medieval 'projection'
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: Medieval 'projection'
> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:05:19 -0500 (EST)
> From: David Allen <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> My understanding is that map projections as we understand them were not
> used in Europe during the Middle Ages. Although literate people at that
> time understood that the earth was round, the idea of projecting the
> spherical earth onto a flat surface was lost until Ptolemy's Geography
> resurfaced in the early Renaissance. Although I am no expert on medieval
> maps, I believe that recent studies of portolan charts have shown that
> they show distances and locations as though they were mapped on a flat
> surface. The closest thing to this "projection" is the equidirectangular
> or "plain chart" projection. John P. Snyder explains this projection in
> his book on Flattening the Earth. Also, it is probably safe to assume
> that Mandeville and his readers gave no thought whatsoever to the
> subject of map projections. Even something like the Catalan Atlas would
> have been a more sophisticated production than anything they were
> familiar with. People in the Middle Ages were not nearly as "map minded"
> as we are, and had very vague ideas about distances and locations. If I
> were working on this project, I would use a modern projection to map
> Mandeville's place names. This is in a sense less anachronistic than to
> pretend to create a map that supposedly looks like a map that Mandeville
> might have made, if it had crossed his mind to make a map.
>
> David Allen
> Stony Brook University (retired)
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Angie Cope, American Geographical Society Library, UW Milwaukee
> <[log in to unmask]>
> To: MAPS-L <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thu, Jan 19, 2012 6:41 am
> Subject: Medieval 'projection'
>
> attachment (jpeg)
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Medieval 'projection'
> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:10:39 -0600
> From: Thornton, Jacob<[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> To:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have a unique request that Iâm working on and thought the list might
> be a great source. Iâm the GIS guy in the Vanderbilt Library and am
> giving an instruction session in a French Lit class that is studying
> Mandevilleâs travels in the 1300s. They want to map the locations he
> went as part of a digital humanities section of the course. Weâre going
> to geocode modern place names that he was known to have traveled to, but
> weâd like to be able to use a map from that time period. Naturally, the
> modern projection didnât exist.
>
> Hereâs a map they want to work with:
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Europe_Mediterranean_Catalan_Atlas.jpeg
>
> Iâve attached my shot at georeferencing that map. I used the Mercator
> projection, which I eyeballed to be the closest fit, but it is certainly
> not perfect. The blue areas are modern landmasses that Iâm using and you
> can see how the map does or doesnât line up. I donât expect to ever
> get
> a perfect fit, but I wonder if I could get a better one at least.
>
> Has anyone here done work in this realm? Creating âprojectionsâ for
> the
> way maps were drawn in medieval times, or at least choosing a modern
> projection that has a closest fit? The time period is 1357-1371. The
> goal is to get our geocode of modern place names to line up as well as
> possible with the Medieval map.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> -Jacob
>
> :::...:::...:::...:::...:::...:::...:::...:::...:::
>
> Jacob B. Thornton
>
> GIS Coordinator
>
> Vanderbilt University
>
> Jean and Alexander Heard Library
>
> 419 21st Avenue South
>
> Nashville, TN 37240
>
> http://www.library.vanderbilt.edu/gis
>
> 615.343.7542
>
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>
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