Wow! Thanks for all the info! I didn't see jordan's e-mail - I think i
might like to follow up in a private e-mail, so if you're out there,
jordan, thanks and send your address!

It is my understanding that Tyrian purple was primarily made form
murex(bolinus) brandaris and purpura haemastoma (Pliny says it was a mix of
those two).  However, murex trunculus was also used for purple dyeing,
though presumably for purple-blue dyeing since it produces a mix of
brominated indigo (purple) and regular indigo (blue). Digs have found murex
trunculus shells as well as the other two. also, a potsherd with a stripe
of purple dug up at an ancient dye house seems to have been dyed from murex
trunculus.

The Israeli group claiming that murex trunculus was the source of biblical
blue have many facts wrong. there is no evidence of murex trunculus as
biblical blue, only evidence it was used in purple dyeing. the chemist who
was the leading proponent of the murex trunculus as biblical blue (hebrew:
tekhelet), Dr. Irving Ziderman, claims that tekhelet is really purple, and
not blue. Murex indigo could not possibly be tekhelet for 2 simple reasons
(as Dr. Ziderman has published):
1. imitation tekhelet mentioned in the Talmud was made of indigo and the
Talmud gives chemical tests for telling the difference between indigo and
real tekhelet. if real tekhelet was also indigo (though derived from a
snail and not a plant), how could there be a chemical test to tell the
difference? in fact, the tests given are both fermentation processes, a
standard method for reducing indigo into the essentially colorless
leuco-compound. the talmud says it is fake tekhelet (indigo) if the color
fades when subjected to the fermentation. a very simple test for indigo.
murex indigo is guaranteed to fail.

2.  Since purple and its shades were worth so much, why use murex trunculus
to make indigo when it could be made easier and cheaper from the plant?
since murex trunculus shells were found in dye houses not near Israel, it
can't be that it was used for blue dyeing just for the Jews who needed it
for religious practice.

Accordingly, Dr. Ziderman says, murex indigo cannot be tekhelet.  he still
thinks murex trunculus is the source of tekhelet, but his position is that
tekhelet is actually purple.  There is an abundance of Talmudic material
and other evidence to say otherwise, so no other murex trunculus supporters
agree with him.  Since murex trunculus indigo could not be the real
tekhelet, and tekhelet must be blue (or essentially blue - possibly a
violet tinge?), the only conclusion is that murex trunculus is not the
source of tekhelet.  My research shows that there is a lot of Talmudic
criteria that murex trunculus does not meet.

I am not sure that any further discussion of this would be of interest to
the whole group.  I am happy to continue this in private e-mails. I am
about to finish a research document detailing my findings and plan to make
it available on the internet.

The Ptil tekhelet web site is filled with inaccurate and misleading
statements.  I am in the process of documenting their errors. I do owe them
gratitude for getting me so interested in researching this fascinating
subject. I am disappointed at their very poor science.



mendel



At 05:10 PM 5/5/00 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear Conchlers,
>
>in the old time (Altertum) about the Romans, they used Bolinus brandaris
for getting purple.
>Helmut from Innsbruck
>
>Helmut "Helix" Nisters
>Franz-Fischer-Str. 46
>A-6020 Innsbruck / Austria / Innsbruck
>phone and fax: 0043 / 512 / 57 32 14
>e-mail: [log in to unmask]
>web:    www.netwing.at/nisters/
>           (please visit it and sign guestbook)
>
>office:
>Natural History Department of the
>Tiroler Landesmuseum Ferdinandeum Innsbruck
>Feldstrasse 11 a
>A-6020 Innsbruck / Austria / Europe
>phone: 0043 / 512 / 58 72 86 - 37
>
>----------
>Hi
>As far as I know M. . (now in the Genus Balinese) occurs on the sand.  The
>shell Patella is also used in making Royal purple.  I don't think M.
>trunculus (Hexaplex) was used to make Royal purple but some snails could be
>used.  All snails have two "feeler" tentacles.  All shells have red blood
>because of hemoglobin and not cyan based blood as in a Horse Shoe Crab.  The
>shell grows all the time for repair and body growth.  There have been shell
>mounds found in the area of the Mediterranean Sea.  It takes MANY thousands
>of shells to make a small amount of purple.  The clear liquid the mollusk
>produces is collected and boiled? or exposed to the sun to make it turn
>purple.  Now I will run around the house to see if my SMALL library of books
>has more accurate information.
>    Shells of the world (small paperback), Shells of the Northern Hemisphere,
>Shells (by K.R.Wye), Shells and shell collecting (a small white hardcover
>book), and Kingdom of the Seashell might be a good sources of information (I
>didn't really look in those books because time is against me and I might be
>thrown off line again).
>    If this info. helps, glad to help.  I will include my email address so
>you can respond to me privately or post to the list.  Did I help?
>Jordan *
>P.S. Only senators or important officials wore Royal purple.
>
>