Hi David,
Perhaps I should clarify what I mean by environmental activists as opposed
to environmentalists. Perhaps I should have said environmental extremists.
Not all activists are extremists. I don't believe that example you cite
falls under the extremist label.
Anyone who has enjoyed the outdoors wants to preserve it. Few people want
to pollute the environment. I believe that most of the people in the United
States are environmentalists. Environmentalists generally support
responsible use of the environment, including shelling, hunting, fishing,
and mountain biking. There are plenty of places for these activities and
room for places where they are banned. Environmentalists also support
reasonable restrictions including CITES.
Those I meant by activists or extremists are those without tolerance for
responsible use. They include groups such as PETA and Greenpeace. However,
their agendas have crept into government agencies and other environmental
groups. Go to http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/00957/wdfw00957.pdf,
Washington State's Fishing Laws Pamphlet. The taking of any marine
invertebrates not otherwise regulated is prohibited. Moon snails and "shore
snails" are specifically mentioned. This certainly protects the environment
and mollusks, but I doubt most here would support such broad restrictions.
Washington also prohibits collecting any non-game or non-food fish from
freshwater or marine areas. This includes a variety of commercially
unimportant, abundant and interesting species suitable for aquaria. There is
no legitimate reason that collecting these mollusks and fish is prohibited.
It is either laziness on the part of government agencies or part of the
extremist agenda. They have apparently forgotten about freshwater
invertebrates other than crayfish, but I am sure that will be "corrected" in
the future.
Even if CITES and other laws were not the direct results of extremist
action. Extremists will use them as a club to forward their agenda. While
many stony corals are listed in CITES, there is a move to list ALL stony
corals, even if the science does not support the need. Note that these are
corals harvested for the aquarium trade, not for their dead skeletons. We
need to remain vigilant against these abuses of otherwise good laws.
Consider countries such as Costa Rica, which ban even the collection of dead
shells. Consider those who would use the Lacey Act to prevent the
importation of shells by ordinary Americans coming home from vacation.
In the United States we have seen a philosophical shift in what we consider
acceptable use of animals. Much of this shift is driven by groups such as
PETA. Many people oppose hunting, especially sport hunting. An increasing
number of people consider fishing to be animal cruelty. Many people now
consider the wearing of fur and even leather to be immoral. Some consider
eating meat to be immoral, including shellfish. In public aquaria circles,
freezing the fish or severing the backbone of a fish is no longer considered
an ethical means of euthanasia. Some people will no longer eat lobster
since it is cooked by boiling alive. I have heard a number of people who
think that zoos are cruel, ignorant of the role that modern zoos play in the
conservation of endangered species.
Of course people are allowed to chose their morality, but more often we are
seeing the imposition of this morality on others. Greyhound racing was
recently banned by voters in Massachusetts on the grounds that it was animal
cruelty. The UK banned fox hunting on the same grounds. A law was proposed
in Rhode Island a few years back that would ban the feeding of live foods
(including worms) to aquarium fish. It was defeated. All these cases have
in common the banning of a recreational activity practiced by a minority by
the majority. Shellers, especially those who collect live mollusks, are a
minority. PETA is just as opposed to killing a clam or snail as they are to
killing a dog or cat!
My comment was aimed primarily on Chris' comment about illegal activity
giving us all a bad name, which it does. However, the extremists do not
even need that excuse to ban collecting. Eventually the people in
Washington State will decide that they can't tell the difference between a
snail killed for its shell in the field vs. a recently-dead "relict shell".
They already prohibit the taking of relict oyster shells. It is just one
small step away from banning all shell collecting. Coming to a state near
you?
Not intending to start a flame war.
Rich
Just before sending this I saw Dennis' post, which I agree with 100%.
Thanks.
-----Original Message-----
From: Conchologists List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
David Kirsh
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 10:22 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [CONCH-L] Endangered Species Act-SELLING OF CITES SP ON EBAY
Dear Rich Pierce,
Thanks for dissecting the various issues involved in this thread but your
use of the term "environmental activists" is problematic.
First, the regulations and laws pertaining to mollusks were probably not the
DIRECT result of environmental activists' actions.
Second, your characterization of what "environmental activists" want is
painted with such a broad brush that it sounds...irrational.
Third, I believe most of this list support the actions of any individual or
group that result in the protection of the environment and mollusks. One
small example: Palm Beach Reef Rescue could rightly be deemed an
environmental activist group. Thanks to their efforts, the dumping of sewage
onto the reef in the vicinity of Delray and Boynton Beach was halted. I'm
confident that this would have been inconceivable without their activism;
government and corporate contractors were intransigent until ordinary
citizens upped the pressure.
David Kirsh
Durham, NC
-----Original Message-----
>From: Rich <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Sep 19, 2010 1:37 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [CONCH-L] Endangered Species Act-SELLING OF CITES SP ON EBAY
>
>It appears to me that there are several issues intertwined here.
>
>1. E-bay policies. What may or may not be sold on e-bay is partially
>independent of wildlife laws. E-bay policies prevent selling many items
>which are legal to buy and sell, such as pet animals.
>
>2. CITES. Doesn't this only apply to international trade? Since the
shells
>in question originated in Hawaii and were sold in Florida, the only
>violations occur when the seller sells to buyers outside of the USA. Sales
>to other collectors within the USA has nothing to do with CITES.
>
>3. Endangered Species Act. Generally, possession of endangered species
>collected before enactment of the law is legal. Supposedly, large numbers
>of Achatinella were taken before collection was banned. The seller stated
>that these shells came from an old collection. Hopefully he has
>documentation.
>
>4. Some of the Achatinella species that were sold on e-bay are listed as
>extinct by the IUCN. According to the Bishop Museum's web site, many of
the
>extinct Achatinella species went extinct before the ESA was enacted in
1973.
>These should be legal to sell and possess regardless of other
documentation.
>
>
>It appears to me that the accusations of illegality of the seller may be
>overstated. It would appear to me that only the sale of non-extinct
species
>to overseas buyers might be in violation of CITES, and then only if they do
>not have an exemption for specimens collected before the treaty was
enacted.
>
>
>Regarding Environmental activists: They are irrational. Nothing less than
>a total ban on all collection and possession of anything found in the
>natural environment will satisfy them. Don't try to appease them, just
>oppose them!
>
>Rich Pierce
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Conchologists List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>Chris Takahashi
>Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 2:34 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [CONCH-L] Endangered Species Act-SELLING OF CITES SP ON EBAY
>
>Martin,
>Of course it's legal to own Achatinella. What's illegal is engaging in
>open online sell/trade. Achatinella is on CITES list of endangered species
>for a reason. To openly offer a federally protected species online on
>Ebay, with prior sales showing in the seller's feedback column, isn't very
>smart.
>
>Ebay can suspend your account for trafficking of illegal items and Fish
>and Wildlife can fine and/or incarcerate if items were sent abroad. In
>this case the seller's feedbacks shows prior sales of said items and
>checking the buyers location shows what state or countries the items were
>shipped too. We shell collectors get hit by ecologists as "reef rapers"
>because of one dimensional thinking. So when a sheller breaks the law it
>really makes all us shellers look bad.
>
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