Dear Dennis,

"The big money...main villains are PETA...and HSUS...." You're conflating animal rights organizations with environmental activists/organizations.

There's a range of environmental activists and organizations. That's another subject and further astray from conch-L's mandate, so I won't go into that here. Suffice it to say that from my perspective the large Washington-based environmental organizations have been rendered relatively ineffectual or narrowed in scope -- among other reasons through the influence of revenues provided by oil and chemical companies.

We would do well to support the many unheralded activists who work to save or restore the habitats that nurture mollusks as well as other fauna and flora. Or even get active ourselves.

David Kirsh
Durham, NC


-----Original Message-----
>From: Dennis sargent <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Sep 19, 2010 1:51 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [CONCH-L] Endangered Species Act-SELLING OF CITES SP ON EBAY
>
>Dear David and Rich,
>
>        Both of you are correct to some degree. Unfortunately, the subject
>of environmental activism is much more complex. In my 40 year plus career I
>have worked primarily in public safety as the Chief of fire and emergency
>medical services in several jurisdictions. I have also had a lifelong
>passion for science and nature including malacology and herpetology.
>I have served in an advisory capacity to our State Fish and Wildlife
>department and established an antivenin serum bank for emergency treatment.
>So I feel that I am qualified to speak on this issue.
>
>        Scientifically based activist groups, such as Palm Beach Reef
>Rescue, The Florida Gopher Tortoise Council and other targeted focus groups
>are doing a wonderful job saving species from extinction.
>
>        Unfortunately the big money, political action organizations all have
>an agenda based on emotion and fear, with either no scientific foundation or
>based upon their own "junk science approach" to a problem.  The main
>villains are PETA "People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals" and HSUS
>"The Humane Society of the United States". Both of these organizations raise
>hundreds of millions of dollars annually, and are basically preaching their
>ideal of "veganism". Their goal is to end all contact between people and
>animals, as pets, as food, etc.
>
>        HSUS uses the name "Humane Society" and television commercials
>showing dogs and cats with IV tubing, etc. calling for donations to save the
>animals. Yet they do not operate the first rescue program or animal shelter.
>Their use of the Humane Society name steals donations from the thousands of
>local "Humane Societies". Their funding is used to push their political
>agenda.
>
>        These organizations have used some of their funds to provide legal
>services to eco-terrorists from the ALF "Animal Liberation Front" and the
>ELF "Earth Liberation Front". As a past Fire Chief, I can vouch for PETA's
>support of these arsonist terrorists that have burned housing developments,
>auto dealerships and university medical research labs. In my opinion neither
>of these organizations deserves to be tax exempt. Unfortunately they have
>conned their way into our society and have members seated on important
>committees concerning wildlife rules and legislation. Our concern becomes
>even more pressing when one of PETA's main supporters, Paul McCartney, is
>invited to the White House and the Animal Planet Channel, Division of the
>Discovery Channel continues to give credibility and even "hero status" to
>groups like Greenpeace.
>
>        It is our job as scientists, and lovers of animals and nature to
>refute the false information that these groups present to our legislators.
>We must educate them with scientific fact and the truth.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Dennis Sargent
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Conchologists List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>David Kirsh
>Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 10:22 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [CONCH-L] Endangered Species Act-SELLING OF CITES SP ON EBAY
>
>Dear Rich Pierce,
>
>Thanks for dissecting the various issues involved in this thread but your
>use of the term "environmental activists" is problematic.
>First, the regulations and laws pertaining to mollusks were probably not the
>DIRECT result of environmental activists' actions.
>Second, your characterization of what "environmental activists" want is
>painted with such a broad brush that it sounds...irrational.
>Third, I believe most of this list support the actions of any individual or
>group that result in the protection of the environment and mollusks. One
>small example: Palm Beach Reef Rescue could rightly be deemed an
>environmental activist group. Thanks to their efforts, the dumping of sewage
>onto the reef in the vicinity of Delray and Boynton Beach was halted. I'm
>confident that this would have been inconceivable without their activism;
>government and corporate contractors were intransigent until ordinary
>citizens upped the pressure.
>
>David Kirsh
>Durham, NC
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Rich <[log in to unmask]>
>>Sent: Sep 19, 2010 1:37 AM
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: [CONCH-L] Endangered Species Act-SELLING OF CITES SP ON EBAY
>>
>>It appears to me that there are several issues intertwined here.
>>
>>1. E-bay policies.  What may or may not be sold on e-bay is partially
>>independent of wildlife laws.  E-bay policies prevent selling many items
>>which are legal to buy and sell, such as pet animals.
>>
>>2. CITES.  Doesn't this only apply to international trade?  Since the
>shells
>>in question originated in Hawaii and were sold in Florida, the only
>>violations occur when the seller sells to buyers outside of the USA.  Sales
>>to other collectors within the USA has nothing to do with CITES.
>>
>>3. Endangered Species Act.  Generally, possession of endangered species
>>collected before enactment of the law is legal.  Supposedly, large numbers
>>of Achatinella were taken before collection was banned.  The seller stated
>>that these shells came from an old collection.  Hopefully he has
>>documentation.
>>
>>4. Some of the Achatinella species that were sold on e-bay are listed as
>>extinct by the IUCN.  According to the Bishop Museum's web site, many of
>the
>>extinct Achatinella species went extinct before the ESA was enacted in
>1973.
>>These should be legal to sell and possess regardless of other
>documentation.
>>
>>
>>It appears to me that the accusations of illegality of the seller may be
>>overstated.  It would appear to me that only the sale of non-extinct
>species
>>to overseas buyers might be in violation of CITES, and then only if they do
>>not have an exemption for specimens collected before the treaty was
>enacted.
>>
>>
>>Regarding Environmental activists:  They are irrational.  Nothing less than
>>a total ban on all collection and possession of anything found in the
>>natural environment will satisfy them.  Don't try to appease them, just
>>oppose them!
>>
>>Rich Pierce
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Conchologists List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>>Chris Takahashi
>>Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 2:34 PM
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: [CONCH-L] Endangered Species Act-SELLING OF CITES SP ON EBAY
>>
>>Martin,
>>Of course it's legal to own Achatinella. What's illegal is engaging in
>>open online sell/trade. Achatinella is on CITES list of endangered species
>>for a reason. To openly offer a federally protected species online on
>>Ebay, with prior sales showing in the seller's feedback column, isn't very
>>smart.
>>
>>Ebay can suspend your account for trafficking of illegal items and Fish
>>and Wildlife can fine and/or incarcerate if items were sent abroad. In
>>this case the seller's feedbacks shows prior sales of said items and
>>checking the buyers location shows what state or countries the items were
>>shipped too. We shell collectors get hit by ecologists as "reef rapers"
>>because of one dimensional thinking. So when a sheller breaks the law it
>>really makes all us shellers look bad.
>>
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>
>
>"It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction.
> Fiction has to make sense." - Mark Twain
>
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"It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction.
 Fiction has to make sense." - Mark Twain

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