Hey Marlo,
Touche ! You are quite right !!!!!!! If you take it back further - I have to ask
(and still do !) where did God come from ?? And I have accepted that I will
probably not find out the answer in this life on earth.
But, I accept also that if God did in fact create the whole Universe, and if
He chose
to inform us that He is eternal, without beginning - then I think that would be
good enough for me.
I hope you really do have a sunny day - and find many amazing shells at the
beach !
Take care,
Brian
At 06:36 PM 99/08/18 -0700, you wrote:
>Sorry Brian, defeated by your own logic. If it is necessary to continually
go backwards (or to the
>beginning) always asking "where did they come from," then your own logic
dictates that if the
>universe was created by a "higher power," you are obligated to ask, "where
did she come from?"
>(Note: Since I'm married, I've learned that all higher powers are female.)
And, if your answer is
>that she always existed, then the same answer is just as valid to explain
the universe. And, if she
>was "created" by some other mechanism, such as Big Bang, then Big Bang is
also a valid explanation
>for creation of the universe. Maybe, she was created by a higher, higher
power. Still no good.
>Because by your logic we must continue asking the question. Where, where,
where did the beginning
>come from? I don't know. And, I don't have the stupendous egotism of
mankind to have to
>anthropomorphize it to my experience and understanding and then impose it
upon all in reach by the
>stake, rack, brand and blade. I can wait until our state of knowledge
advances to be able to
>discern observable evidence. In the mean time, just give me a sunny day at
the beach, a shell
>washed up, and I'll not impose my "faith" on anyone else, nor bear them ill
for there's, as long as
>they don't come after me with their "law" book in one hand and a threat in
the other.
>--
>Marlo
>Merritt Island, Florida
>[log in to unmask]
>
>Brian Hayes wrote:
>
>> Hello !
>> I always enjoy creationist/evolutionary discussions - because they get you
>> thinking, which is a good excercise!
>> Well, I am a creationist, but also a marine biologist.
>
>> At some point you have to consider creation theory because by the very
definition of evolution
>> (one
>> state changing and becoming another state) - you must have a state or
life to begin with.
>> Now if you take this definition backwards to its logical conclusion (or
>> beginning) - then before life was formed there must have been the
elements of life
>> floating around in a gaseous state (or whatever) - then arises the question,
>> out of what did these elements evolve, etc etc until you get the question
>> "where did they come from ?".
>> And at that point you have say that you don't know (Stop here. There is
no necessity to go any
>> further. If you don't know, then look for observable/demonstrable data.
Don't just make
>> something up. If you don't understand why the sun rises and sets, you do
not need to invent a sun
>> god who draws it across the sky in an invisible chariot. Investigate
until you learn why.) or
>> concede that there
>> must have been
>> a higher power (By this logic we'd have to invent a higher power to
explain everything we don't
>> understand. Boy, we'd have more gods than the Greeks.) that created
them in the first place.
>> If you said you don't know - then you must concede that the possibility of
>> creation by a higher power does exist, even though it cannot be
>> scientifically proven. (Rubbish! If you don't know; then, if anything,
logic, experience and
>> history dictate that you need to educate yourself or investigate to
discover the explanation.
>> And, they also dictate that such discovery may be beyond current
technology and understanding, and
>> may have to wait generations. But, all of your experience and knowledge
of history should tell
>> you that what was once ascribed to the "power of the gods" has eventually
and consistently been
>> explained by science. And, as the body of knowledge and understanding
grows and we develop more
>> and more technology to allow us to accurately observe the universe, more
and more of the mysteries
>> of the gods will be explained. The current state of ignorance of a
people is no basis to
>> necessitate the creation of spirits. Surely, we've learned better by now.)
>
>> And once you have made this leap to acknowledge that a higher power actually
>> MUST HAVE created them (because science says that matter cannot be
created out of
>> nothing) - then you have the beginnings of FAITH - which is what you need
to have a
>> relationship with the creator-God of this Universe - as I have had for
the past 30 years.
>>
>> ANother thing to think about is that if God actually did create everything
>> (including science) then faith and science cannot indeed be mutually
exclusive !
>>
>
>
><HTML>
>Sorry Brian, defeated by your own logic. If it is necessary to
continually
>go backwards (or to the beginning) always asking "where did they come from,"
>then your own logic dictates that if the universe was created by a "higher
>power," you are obligated to ask, "where did she come from?" (Note:
>Since I'm married, I've learned that all higher powers are female.)
>And, if your answer is that she always existed, then the same answer is
>just as valid to explain the universe. And, if she was "created"
>by some other mechanism, such as Big Bang, then Big Bang is also a valid
>explanation for creation of the universe. Maybe, she was created
>by a higher, higher power. Still no good. Because by your logic
>we must continue asking the question. Where, where, where did the
>beginning come from? I don't know. And, I don't have the stupendous
>egotism of mankind to have to anthropomorphize it to my experience and
>understanding and then impose it upon all in reach by the stake, rack,
>brand and blade. I can wait until our state of knowledge advances
>to be able to discern observable evidence. In the mean time, just
>give me a sunny day at the beach, a shell washed up, and I'll not impose
>my "faith" on anyone else, nor bear them ill for there's, as long as they
>don't come after me with their "law" book in one hand and a threat in the
>other.
><BR>--
><BR>Marlo
><BR>Merritt Island, Florida
><BR>[log in to unmask]
>
><P>Brian Hayes wrote:
><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Hello !
><BR>I always enjoy creationist/evolutionary discussions - because they
>get you
><BR>thinking, which is a good excercise!
><BR>Well, I am a creationist, but also a marine biologist.</BLOCKQUOTE>
>
><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>At some point you have to consider creation theory
>because by the very definition of evolution (one
><BR>state changing and becoming another state) - you must have a state
>or life to begin with.
><BR>Now if you take this definition backwards to its logical conclusion
>(or
><BR>beginning) - then before life was formed there must have been the elements
>of life
><BR>floating around in a gaseous state (or whatever) - then arises the
>question,
><BR>out of what did these elements evolve, etc etc until you get the question
><BR><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">"where did they come from ?".</FONT>
><BR>And at that point you have say that you don't know <FONT
COLOR="#009900">(Stop
>here. There is no necessity to go any further. If you don't
>know, then look for observable/demonstrable data. <B>Don't just make
>something up. If you don't understand why the sun rises and sets,
>you do not need to invent a sun god who draws it across the sky in an invisible
>chariot. Investigate until you learn why.</B>)<B> </B>
></FONT>or concede that there
><BR>must have been
><BR>a higher power <FONT COLOR="#009900">(By this logic we'd have to invent
>a higher power to explain everything we don't understand. Boy, we'd
>have more gods than the Greeks.) </FONT>that created them in the
>first place.
><BR>If you said you don't know - <FONT COLOR="#FF0000">then you must concede
>that the possibility of</FONT>
><BR><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">creation by a higher power does exist</FONT>,
>even though it cannot be
><BR>scientifically proven. <FONT COLOR="#009900">(Rubbish! If you
>don't know; then, if anything, logic, experience and history dictate that
>you need to educate yourself or investigate to discover the explanation.
>And, they also dictate that such discovery may be beyond current technology
>and understanding, and may have to wait generations. But, all of
>your experience and knowledge of history should tell you that what was
>once ascribed to the "power of the gods" has eventually and consistently
>been explained by science. And, as the body of knowledge and
understanding
>grows and we develop more and more technology to allow us to accurately
>observe the universe, more and more of the mysteries of the gods will be
>explained. The current state of ignorance of a people is no basis
>to necessitate the creation of spirits. Surely, we've learned better
>by now.)</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
>
><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>And once you have made this leap to acknowledge that
>a higher power actually
><BR>MUST HAVE created them (because science says that matter cannot be
>created out of
><BR>nothing) - then you have the beginnings of FAITH - which is what you
>need to have a
><BR>relationship with the creator-God of this Universe - as I have had
>for the past 30 years.
>
><P>ANother thing to think about is that if God actually did create everything
><BR>(including science) then faith and science cannot indeed be mutually
>exclusive !
><BR> </BLOCKQUOTE>
> </HTML>
>
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