-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: Medieval 'projection'
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:57:06 -0600
From: Thornton, Jacob <[log in to unmask]>
To: Maps, Air Photo, GIS Forum - Map Librarianship <[log in to unmask]>
Thanks for all of these great responses! I now have a little more
research and experimentation to do before I decide how we'll actually
present this in the course, but this is extraordinarily helpful.
Initially I'm thinking I may end up leading some discussion on map
creation in this time period and explain projections, and maybe do a
rough Georeferencing project (like the one I sent with my questions) to
give the students a new skill and an idea of how changes in science and
cartography have evolved and improved, and by how much. From there we
could simply map the place names onto modern landmasses in a modern
projection to get a realistic idea of the path of Mandeville's travels.
My thought is that with a firm understanding of the
cartography/projection issues and a modernized map of the significant
places, the students will be able to compare and contrast and weigh the
various advantages and shortcomings of using modern or medieval maps for
a project like this.
I'll also say that I'm in agreement - it's an issue of accuracy and
cartography as opposed to 'projection' when it comes to medieval maps,
however when you start to think about geocoding specific places and even
estimating measures of distance, you either have to forgo the old map
for a new one, or bring more modern projections into the conversation to
try and find one that is the closest fit. I think the answer may be to
experiment and see how close it can get and make the decision based on
that.
This may change as I dig farther into this information, but I think I
have a solid starting point now. Many thanks!
-Jacob
-----Original Message-----
From: Maps, Air Photo, GIS Forum - Map Librarianship
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Angie Cope, American
Geographical Society Library, UW Milwaukee
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 11:32 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Medieval 'projection'
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Medieval 'projection'
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:28:57 -0700 (MST)
From: Laurence S. Creider <[log in to unmask]>
To: Maps, Air Photo, GIS Forum - Map Librarianship <[log in to unmask]>
I agree with Ken Grabach and David Allen. This discussion, of course,
also raises the problem of scale (or lack of it) in medieval maps. I
think that both Mr. Thornton and his professor might do well to consult
a basic discussion of map-making in the Middle Ages, even an older one
to better understand the issues.
Browsing GA201 might help; there are lots of chapters on ancient and
medieval maps.
--
Laurence S. Creider
Interim Head
Archives and Special Collections Dept.
University Library
New Mexico State University
Las Cruces, NM 88003
Work: 575-646-4756
Fax: 575-646-7477
[log in to unmask]
On Thu, January 19, 2012 9:56 am, Angie Cope, American Geographical
Society Library, UW Milwaukee wrote:
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: RE: Medieval 'projection'
> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:43:29 -0500
> From: Grabach, Kenneth A. Mr. <[log in to unmask]>
> To: Maps, Air Photo, GIS Forum - Map Librarianship
> <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
> I am by no means expert either on the georeferencing issue, nor on the
> topic of maps dating from before the later Renaissance. However,
> based on my admittedly limited understanding, I am inclined to agree
> with David Allen's comments. I think the issue of distance at the
> period of time in question represents an additional problem. Often
> distances longer than line of sight would be measured in terms of time traveled.
> Distance covered in a "day's travel by wagon" or "day's walking" or
> "day's march" and similar things. On the other hand, with a map that
> is sufficient to locate places named in Mandeville's account, this
> issue really wouldn't matter. It only requires comparison of the data
> mentioned in the account with a modern map and the information it
> provides.
>
> Ken Grabach <[log in to unmask]>
> Maps Librarian Phone: 513-529-1726
> Miami University Libraries
> Oxford, Ohio 45056 USA
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Maps, Air Photo, GIS Forum - Map Librarianship
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Angie Cope, American
> Geographical Society Library, UW Milwaukee
> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 11:06 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Medieval 'projection'
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: Medieval 'projection'
> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:05:19 -0500 (EST)
> From: David Allen <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> My understanding is that map projections as we understand them were
> not used in Europe during the Middle Ages. Although literate people at
> that time understood that the earth was round, the idea of projecting
> the spherical earth onto a flat surface was lost until Ptolemy's
> Geography resurfaced in the early Renaissance. Although I am no expert
> on medieval maps, I believe that recent studies of portolan charts
> have shown that they show distances and locations as though they were
> mapped on a flat surface. The closest thing to this "projection" is
> the equidirectangular or "plain chart" projection. John P. Snyder
> explains this projection in his book on Flattening the Earth. Also, it
> is probably safe to assume that Mandeville and his readers gave no
> thought whatsoever to the subject of map projections. Even something
> like the Catalan Atlas would have been a more sophisticated production
> than anything they were familiar with. People in the Middle Ages were not nearly as "map minded"
> as we are, and had very vague ideas about distances and locations. If
> I were working on this project, I would use a modern projection to map
> Mandeville's place names. This is in a sense less anachronistic than
> to pretend to create a map that supposedly looks like a map that
> Mandeville might have made, if it had crossed his mind to make a map.
>
> David Allen
> Stony Brook University (retired)
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Angie Cope, American Geographical Society Library, UW Milwaukee
> <[log in to unmask]>
> To: MAPS-L <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thu, Jan 19, 2012 6:41 am
> Subject: Medieval 'projection'
>
> attachment (jpeg)
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Medieval 'projection'
> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:10:39 -0600
> From: Thornton, Jacob<[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> To:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have a unique request that Iâm working on and thought the list
> might be a great source. Iâm the GIS guy in the Vanderbilt Library
> and am giving an instruction session in a French Lit class that is
> studying Mandevilleâs travels in the 1300s. They want to map the
> locations he went as part of a digital humanities section of the
> course. Weâre going to geocode modern place names that he was known
> to have traveled to, but weâd like to be able to use a map from that
> time period. Naturally, the modern projection didnât exist.
>
> Hereâs a map they want to work with:
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Europe_Mediterranea
> n_Catalan_Atlas.jpeg
>
> Iâve attached my shot at georeferencing that map. I used the
> Mercator projection, which I eyeballed to be the closest fit, but it
> is certainly not perfect. The blue areas are modern landmasses that
> Iâm using and you can see how the map does or doesnât line up. I
> donât expect to ever get a perfect fit, but I wonder if I could get
> a better one at least.
>
> Has anyone here done work in this realm? Creating âprojectionsâ
> for the way maps were drawn in medieval times, or at least choosing a
> modern projection that has a closest fit? The time period is
> 1357-1371. The goal is to get our geocode of modern place names to
> line up as well as possible with the Medieval map.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> -Jacob
>
> :::...:::...:::...:::...:::...:::...:::...:::...:::
>
> Jacob B. Thornton
>
> GIS Coordinator
>
> Vanderbilt University
>
> Jean and Alexander Heard Library
>
> 419 21st Avenue South
>
> Nashville, TN 37240
>
> http://www.library.vanderbilt.edu/gis
>
> 615.343.7542
>
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>
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