See bottom for my comments; John ----------- Original message from marlo <[log in to unmask]>: -------------- Rule #9: Don’t collect for the purpose of joining a social club. If this is your main interest, choose a collecting hobby that doesn't destroy habitat and kill wildlife. John Timmerman wrote: “The aspect of shell clubs should be tempered in my opinion. Yes, shell clubs have their social and other features (and members) that are not strictly supportive to the strict scientific study of and conservation of mollusks yet they serve an important purpose. That is by energizing their members. Humans are social creatures thus sharing passion and interest with one another is a natural thing to do.” John, I agree with you completely that clubs have social value. And therein is exactly my point. If it is the social value that is the central objective, then join a club that doesn’t encourage destruction of habitat and wildlife. Clubs, the vast majority of members of whom collect for simple possession, competition, social fun, and eventual disposal when their interest wanes, do more harm than good by encouraging frivolous participation by many. If you love the shells, why energize more and more people to facilitate destruction of the very object of your affection? I can see the point of those who came naturally to a love of shells wanting to find others of similar affection, but why actively attract those with no or a mere passing interest, most of whom will collect for a period and drop out. It’s these new recruits that do the most damage. That’s just plain wasteful. Some shell clubs do some good. And, some clubs actually have as their goal study, preservation and sharing. Over the years I’ve met numerous collectors whose principal goal is collecting to support research, share material, present material via books and the Internet, preserve species, and collaborate with others. We didn’t need clubs to collect together or get together and socialize. I belonged to a traditional shell club for a time. It was indeed a social experience. Many nice people. But, that’s exactly where I learned that while all were touched by the beauty of shells, the primary motivation for most was simple possession, competition, and social interaction. Few were motivated or made the effort to support research, share material and information, preserve species, and collaborate with others. As Bobbi Cordy pointed out, Tucker Abbott used to say shell club members can make valuable contributions because they could be the hands and feet in the field to supplement the lack of time he and other researchers had to spend in the field! And his lament in our personal conversations was that too few actually did so. Marlo merritt island, fl Marlo, Yes, I agree. A few qualifiers. I have encountered people that seem to join clubs strictly to gather as many shells that can be had, to have more and better than everyone else. However, via my involvement in clubs I have opportunity to speak to people on all levels of interest, from those that make my brain hurt with their incredible knowledge to those that simply like shells for their beauty. I am an assimilation of both disciplines. (I collect shells for their beauty firstly then want to know about them scientifically but that is just me. I don't check list collect. That is my approach. Not right or wrong.) I estimate the majority of club members I have interacted with are very concerned about preserving mollusk populations, especially in the areas they have come to respect and know. Years ago a new friend in a shell club took me to one of his favorite localities with the promise that I not tell anyone how to get there. He knew I was a very conservative collector but feared the onslaught of uncontrolled collecting wiping the place clean of mollusks. I never told anyone. I have seen "feeding" frenzies by collectors where everything gets stripped from a site including those shells with obviously banged up shells, whole buckets of the same thing that the collector has little idea of what they are going to do with them. Some people join shell clubs to find out where to get good shells and end up frustrated when established club members are reluctant to immediately take them to their favorite place(s). It is the "what can I get for me" attitude that turns off many existing members to ones who "want." As I stated before that shell clubs are social organizations is undeniable. However, as we belong to a club we also do not want to facilitate the stripping of sites by people looking only to gain stuff for their collections with little regard to the future of the resource or respect to other member's wishes. Many can relate to an experience when they have been stung by someone who seemed to be a friend who systematically stripped a site clean of everything once they had been familiarized with it. It is distressing to visit a site that once held abundance and now its a "desert" due to the short sighted excesses of others. True, many collectors find a good spot and keep it a secret so it can be successfully collected it in the future. There is that aspect of it. By parallel, many sport hunters are some of the staunchest protectors the very game (and the habitat that supports it) they hunt, so their sport will be viable in the future. They approach management in a scientific way via population studies, carrying capacity of the land, forage etc. Your guidelines to responsible collecting provide the same for mollusks. Mankind is not there in regard to mollusks. What is presently occurring is similar to wild game such as deer 100 years ago in the USA. There were people taking game for the love of the hunt, being outside, etc.; reasons that interest people in it today. Along side of sport hunters were market hunters who exploited wild game for wholesale food purpose with the mistaken belief it was a limitless resource. Those people who benefited from market hunting were the hunters who made money and the city people who ate the game, neither of whom likely had much connection to the wildlife in the first place. When game populations began to collapse due to over harvesting, sport hunters were often the first to sound the alarm, propose and support laws against market hunting, then re-introduction of game to areas where it had been lost. As shell collectors I believe that is a possible direction for the future of our field of interest which your rules provide a template for. John Timmerman Wilmington, North Carolina