Two messages that should answer the Scotland forever...., uh Scotland and
Wales question. -----------------Johnnie Sutherland
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Tue, 07 Dec 1993 09:18:08 +0000
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Scotland & Wales
Hi Folks,
Here's a British angle on a peculiarly British conundrum. What this all boils
down to is how one defines the terms "Nation", "State" and "Country". There
seems to me to be no problem with the concept of the Scottish and Welsh nations
- - they are clearly distinct entities from the English nation. However, there
is
no English, Scottish or Welsh state - just the British state. To complicate
matters, Scotland has its own legal and education system, but Wales does not -
it is lumped together with England for these purposes. As for local government,
England and Wales are subdivided into counties, Scotland into regions. Both
Scotland and Wales have their own flags (as does England), and both have their
own postage stamps, although these are not universally used, small thistles and
dragons appearing in the top right-hand corner of the basic stamps featuring
the Queen's head and the price of the stamp. Various Scottish banks issue their
own banknotes. The pound note has long since disappeared in England and Wales,
but not "North of the Border", leading to problems for those returning South
encountering disbelieving shopkeepers unwilling to accept what is perfectly
legal tender.
I have the "Guinness UK data book" (1992) to hand and it says:
SCOTLAND: "...effectively lost much of its independence in 1603 when
King James VI of Scotland also became King James I of England. From 1603 to
1707 Scotland remained....an independent nation. Scotland and England continued
to have separate parliaments until....1707......By statute Scotland may not be
represented by less than 71 MPs at Westminster."
WALES: "The area now recognised as the principality of Wales was
incorporated into England by Act of Parliament in 1536....By statute Wales may
not be represented by fewer than 35 MPs at Westminster."
Despite all this, at no point have I ventured to say whether Scotland and Wales
are countries. I have independently enquired amongst five members of our Map
Room staff (one of whom was born in Bangor, Wales), and the result is unanimous
that both are indeed "countries", the problem being how to define the word
"country". They are definitely not regions, nor are they states, nor are they
independent.
Any help?
Nick Millea
Map Curator, Bodleian Library, Oxford
tel +44 865 277013
fax +44 865 277182
email [log in to unmask]
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Johnnie, this is the best response on my Scotland and Wales question.
Thanks to all who responded. Jim
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Jim Coombs -- I had forwarded your question to a few friends in England
(if that's the correct designation). Jim McNeil, Malcolm Lewis' research
associate at the University of Sheffield sent this reply. Post it when
you have your various answers, if you wish.
Ed Dahl -- [log in to unmask]
================= Begin forwarded message =================
[log in to unmask] (AMERINDIAN AND INUIT MAPS AND MAPPING)
Re: Scotland and Wales
Fri, 03 Dec
> ----------------------------Original message--------------------------
+ --
> Are Scotland and Wales (and England, for that matter) countries? I
+ have
> once again been contacted to provide something in writing in order to
> settle an argument. Can someone out there provide me with a citation
+ to
> a source which defines the political nature of these parts of the U.K.
+ ?
> The World Factbook, and the other limited sources I have, skirt the
+ issue.
>
> Jim Coombs, Map Librarian, Southwest Missouri St. Univ.
Ed Dahl (and Jim Coombs, via Ed?),
This is a question that makes Scots cringe. No doubt the Welsh react
in similar fashion. Of course, there wouldn't be nearly as much
confusion if people throughout the world (including the English)
would be more stringent in their use of geo-political names. I have
lost count of the number of times that someone says "England" when
they mean the UK. And when the error is pointed out to them, there
is usually one of two reactions:
1. The English one, which is along the lines of "well, I meant that,
you knew that, why are you being so petty"
2. The other (e.g., Americans), which is more understandable, along
the lines of your question, i.e., well, what difference is there?
So here goes...
The United Kingdom was formed (finally) by the Union of the
Parliaments in 1707. The crowns had been united in 1603 when James
VI of Scotland inherited the English crown after the death of
Elizabeth I of England, thus becoming James VI and I (normally
referred to as James I by English historians). Note, in passing,
that because of this, Elizabeth I was never Queen of Scotland, so the
present Queen should correctly be referred to as Elizabeth II and I
(Scots pettiness again) :-)
For all international political purposes, all three countries are
united as a single country in the United Kingdom. Single membership
of the EC, of the UN, of NATO, etc.
However, the plot thickens. Scotland, in particular, has always
remained separate in many ways from England. Our legal system is
totally separate and different, although a certain harmonisation has
been inevitable. Our education system is completely different from
the English one, as is our church (the Church of Scotland has no ties
and little in common with the Anglican church). Many Scots will tell
you that they are Scots first and British second. Increasingly, more
are inserting European between the two.
So, the answer to your question is, strictly speaking, no. They are
EQUAL partners in a union of sovereign states, enacted in 1707. That
does not approach the ancillary question of the nature of that union
then (how it was foisted on the Scottish people) or today (when, but
for a devious piece of referendum-rigging in 1979, the Scots at least,
would have had a measure of political self-determination).
For a text on the history of this situation, see John Prebble's "The
Lion in the North", a very readable introduction to Scottish history.
For the present, try the Encyclopaedia Britannica. I suspect it's
got an appropriate entry.
Hope this helps. Of course, as is probably apparent, this account is
brought to you by a Scot of certain political leanings...
An English or Welsh account may differ in emphasis. ;-(
Jim McNeil.
************************************************
Amerindian And Inuit Maps and Mapping Programme,
Department of Geography,University of Sheffield,
Sheffield, S10 2TN, England.
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Senior Investigator: | Research Associate:
G. Malcolm Lewis. | Jim McNeil.
Tel: (direct dialling) |
(0742) 824739 | (0742) 824748
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1993 - Year of the World's
Indigenous Tribal Peoples.
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